General Robert Cooley, Jr. | Nuream

Amplified CEO: Gen. Robert Cooley, Jr. | Nuream

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Amplified CEO with VC and serial entrepreneur, Richard Stroupe with today's guest General Robert S. Cooley Jr. He's a retired US Army, brigadier general, the CEO and Co-founder of Nuream and the owner of two of Wilmington's favorites: Apple Annie's Bake Shop, and The Wine Sampler.

General Cooley, thank you for coming by today. Warm welcome. 

Yeah, thank you so much. And, uh, you know, General is one of the terms I've been used and there's plenty of other ones, but, uh, please call me Rob for sure. 

Well, it's a title that you've earned, so I, I know plenty of Generals and I always lead out General, so.

Oh, thank you. It's too kind. Really appreciate it. It's well, well earned. And I, I'd love to learn more about your military background, and I know that you're active in this market in Wilmington and you've got your own startup and it seems like you're, you're multi multi-entrepreneur doing different things with the bakery and the wine shop.

You know, it's just so much we could talk about [00:01:00] here, but, uh, so why don't we just kick it out and tell me what, what in the world are you doing right now? Like what, what's keeping you busy these days? Anything? 

So, so it's fun. Uh, there are no two days alike, which, which is I think is the, the start of the entrepreneur kind of journey, right.

Uh, but Reem, our neurodata science company's really, really, uh, exciting right now. Um, we are continuing to raise money. We're looking at some really extreme partnerships, which is exciting. Mm-hmm. We're getting some outside validation with non-dilutive government grants, partnering with some really amazing companies and organizations.

We're really taking that to the next level, which is exciting. And one of the key things about our success at Nuream is that the ecosystem here, the startup ecosystem or the entrepreneurial kind of environment and Wilmington is really unique. Uh, you know, I was a corporate venture capital guy at Phillips Medical Systems for about a decade out of the Boston area.

Mm-hmm. Traveling all over the world, buying, selling technologies and companies. And I can tell you the Boston environment is not as, uh, conducive to collaboration and win-win on everybody's side. Mm-hmm. This spot down here in Wilmington [00:02:00] is, and so we've had some great advocates at the Jim Roberts of the world.

Mm-hmm. The Joe Colopy and GrepBeat, uh, and just the entrepreneurs here, we really kind of grip hands together and hold each other accountable, but are really there for each other. So that's, that's the day, the day is really kind of Nuream and, and how we continue to grow. Uh, we're raising money, which is exciting in this, uh, very.

Dynamic, uh, capital market. Uh, there's lots of uncertainty in just about everywhere from the federal level down to the local level. Investors are kinda watching that. Mm-hmm. With a very ken eye. They should. And then, you know, it's not bad being a small town entrepreneur and small town Main Street, uh, you know, Apple Annie's Bake Shop is, has been around for about 40 years and, uh, we're a fabric of the community and really continue to give back.

Uh, and then The Wine Sampler also just a big part of the community and it's fun to combine all those together. And, you know, people say, is that too much on your plate? And I say, absolutely not. Because I learn from each of the businesses and certainly from the military as well, I will translate things that I've done for the last 30, 40 years in the military into the business side and back and forth, and then from one business to the other, because it's very interesting to watch.[00:03:00] 

A retail business on small town America. Look at, right. A Neurodata science company. And how do you bring a product to market and how do you talk about technology advancements? How do you stay above and beyond kind of the market need? How do you anticipate where the next market trend is going? And it's really interesting, kind of fun.

But no two days alike busy from start to finish. For sure. 

Well, I know you spent 37 years in the military. I did. And you know, you're, you're allowed to slow down a little bit and, and kind of retire one time. Uh, I, I tried that. It didn't work very well for about three 

months. Yeah, 

yeah. Sounds like you're just ramping up, you know, doing, being, you know, way more busier now than you have in the past.

But, uh, 

it, it's fun. It, it is really fun. And, and being in the military for, for more than 37 years is just an honor. I mean, to be able to do the things we've done around the world and give back to our community is, is nothing but, uh, nothing but amazing. And I thank everybody out there who's listening, who has served, or anybody in their family served.

'cause it is a tough, tough racket these days. Uh, but we do what we do, uh, for, for, for our community, our families, and our country. So it's, it's pretty [00:04:00] amazing. 

Absolutely. Well, thank you for your service. Thank you. I've got two getting ready to go in. That's right. I'm excited for you. Yeah, we'll see. Need the best and brightest out there.

Absolutely. Geopolitical tensions, you know, kinda like, whoa, you know, what, what are we gonna, think's gonna happen? Yeah. 

You know what? There's always been geopolitical tension, but things like the military have been around for a couple hundred years. Yes. We're meant to be that kind of calming influence and, uh, we have senior leaders that are great and they'll do, they'll do a phenomenal job.

Yeah. I, I'd love to get some insights on the military, uh, but I want to go back and touch base 'cause you, you open the idea of the ecosystem here in Wilmington. Sure, sure. Um, I know that you're very active with Jim Roberts, who we've also had on the podcast and you know, you've, you've, um, you're good friends with David Reeser and, and with OpiAID and of course we've had him here and.

And I know that you're doing a business venture with, uh, Topsail Steamer. So we've had Danielle on the podcast, so it just seems like it's, uh, a tight community that we have. Well, first and foremost, how did you break into that system and that network? [00:05:00] 

So it, it, it's really a network of networks. Uh, so when I came down here with, um, you know, my dad's a company that he started my co with, my college fund in high school that made me or asked me to go to kind of West Point.

Uh, we moved down here afterwards. So as an entrepreneur, you know, in the late nineties, uh, the ecosystem didn't exist, but I knew there needed to be some type of support structure internally. Um, then I went off to Chapel Hill, uh, finished my MBA, went to Deloitte Consulting, then was hired by one of my, um, one of my clients, which was Phillips Medical System.

And then ran their corporate venture model. 

Mm-hmm. 

Uh, for about a decade. So now I've been a startup. I've been kind of a corporate vc, uh, came back to Wilmington, uh, 'cause I was deploying with the Army a couple times, and when I got back to Wilmington, there was not an ecosystem. There's a couple big companies, uh, but more the old school kind of Corning's and GEs, but there wasn't really a, and they were small town entrepreneurship, but not a tech entrepreneurship opportunity.

This was well before the live Oak banks and nCino were here. 

Okay. 

And then when I came back [00:06:00] after a couple deployments the second time, um, Jim Roberts and I had bumped into each other in a couple environments. Uh, and I said, Jim, I'm, I'm a former or recovering corporate VC guy, you know, how do I get involved in this?

He said, well, come to some of my events. Okay. And that started to kind of. Listen to the individuals that have been doing it. 'cause I had been out of the corporate VC world for about a decade. Mm-hmm. So things have changed, right? Monetary vehicles have changed, cost of capital changed. The way we looked at technology has changed.

So things had changed quite a bit and, which was great and I needed to get back inside of it. And Jim gave me the opportunity to just kind of put my toe in the water That turned into a couple investments. So I've made some investments in startup companies here through Jim's kind of angel network that allowed me to see the kind of mechanical side of the entrepreneurship.

Mm-hmm. And then when we started our new company, it was just a natural progression to say, Hey Jim, could you help me do this, meet these folks? And then that just exploded. Um, you know, not only do we participate in Jim's events, but we've been a speaker a couple of times, which is great. Mm-hmm. Uh, 1 million Cups certainly helps, but Jim's a, a bullhorn, uh, and [00:07:00] so he likes to, uh, and he's very good at opening avenues.

And so if you take an opportunity and you do all the hard work and it's, 

Absolutely. Do you happen to know a gentleman named Neil Underwood? 

I know [00:08:00] the name, but, uh, you never, I've not connected. Yeah. 

I'll have to connect you with him. Love it. Um, for sure. He and I sit on a board together.

Oh, HFI and Oh yeah. When you said FinTech, you know, he's kinda like, uh, the, the king of the FinTech area around here for sure. And, uh, very impressive individual, what he's done at Encino and live Absolutely. Bank and now Canopy Ventures. So, but yeah, it, it definitely seems there's a vibe, you know, here, wilmington's from an ecosystem for startups and Jim, absolutely.

When you said Bullhorn, that's, that's a perfect analogy. You know him from the Midwest, uh, huge basketball fan as well. But, uh, when you mentioned a Million Cups, we're talking about the UNC Wilmington Center of Innovation or Entrepreneurship. Yeah. Yep. So how, how active are you there? 

So, I, I try to go to every week we presented, um, about a year and a half ago.

Um, I think we had a pretty good turnout. What it is. And these aren't, uh, in multiple cities, I think maybe 30 or 40 cities around the country. Mm-hmm. I think it's from the Kaufman Foundation. It was the original backer 1 million cups. The [00:09:00] idea is have 1 million cups of coffee and listen to the new companies talk.

Mm-hmm. And pitch. And these are from back of cocktail napkin concepts, all to a little bit more, more mature and robust companies. Mm-hmm. But it's, it's an opportunity for folks in the area to come together to listen to one or two companies pitch, and then you ask them questions and it's great feedback for the entrepreneur.

Uh, it's a safe space for kind of feedback. Some of it's very constructive, however, it's very pointed. Mm-hmm. Uh, but it gives 'em some ideas. And a lot of folks will do that very early in their, their journey. And then some will come back later and give an updated pitch. Mm-hmm. Uh, so it's great. It's Wednesday mornings at nine o'clock.

You can go on, uh, online and watch it, or you can go actually to the CIE kinda say it in person. I try to go in person. Uh, but with the travel schedule, it's hard to do that. But I, I, I do try to be there as much as possible. A a to listen, to be aware, certainly as an investor. But b, to continue to give back to the, to the other entrepreneurs in the environment.

Yeah.

Uh, depending on where you are in the military, the military's been around a long time, so you may think you're the most important battalion commander that's doing something, but there's seven folks that are right behind you that can do just as well.

So you have to make an impact very, very quickly. And your impact is by the generations of young officers, young non-commissioned officers and young soldiers, uh, that, that remember, hey, I remember when General Cooley said X, Y, and Z. That, that goes a long way. 

Mm-hmm. Now you've been in Wilmington for a while, right?

I've, I've 

been on and out in and out of Wilmington since the late nineties. Yeah. 

Okay. And are you, other than Jim's whale fund, are you active investor and other startups in the community or? 

So I've invested four through Jim. Okay. Uh, and I'm looking at a couple other, uh, outside of Jim's environment.

Okay. Uh, but also a lot of the powders is inside of Nuream right now, which is, um Right, which is important too. Uh. But [00:12:00] you, you, you can't put all your eggs in one basket, certainly. Uh, but you do identify some real unique opportunity and you wanna, it, it's the giving back is a financial give back. Also that, that helps a lot at certain points in times on the entrepreneurial journey for sure.

Well, a hundred percent. The network here in Wilmington is grateful for your contributions and people like yourself who spend the time to educate and incentivize and motivate, you know, the students at UNC Wilmington and the other startups in the area. It's, it's impressive. And it's, uh, it's, it's very exciting.

I would say the same to you. Uh, you know, what you're doing here is really amazing. Um, not only you with your, your journey and your experience, but your ability to kind of really think through some complex problems and then, you know, a podcast like this is amazing. So thank you for what you do. Oh, thanks.

It's, uh, it's a big part and I think, I think as, as we continue to grow, um. I did another, uh, podcast last week with Chris Capone. Mm-hmm. Um, and then we did one with GrepBeat. I mean, the more that we can put that bullhorn out and talk about what's going on here with the right people, I think goes a long way.

So, again, thank you for, for what you do. 

[00:13:00] Absolutely. Yeah. I've, I've been here in this area. We've been coming here for about 20 years, I guess, and, uh, vacationing in the summertime. But I'm, I'm originally from North Carolina, but moved Northern Virginia, which you're very familiar with all too familiar with these days.

Yeah. But as far as like investing in businesses, I always wanted to, but never really had the opportunity Right. Until we did some real estate things here and Yep. Then, you know, making some connections in Wilmington and making some investments, you know, some other companies and getting in with Jim and his network, it's been transforming.

So it's, it's great. It's awesome. Now, where are you from originally? You said you were from New Jersey or, yeah, 

so I went to high school in New Jersey. Okay. So, uh, when I was born, my dad was in the Army because I was born in Al uh, Albuquerque, New Mexico at Sandia Air Force Base. Okay. Um, then he left the army after that and then we moved nine times before I finished high school, like a military family, but, but he was out the army.

Mm-hmm. So I did all four years in Jersey. Uh, and then I mentioned that he started his [00:14:00] company with my college fund, my senior year in high school. Didn't have any more money. So what was that 

company? 

So that was comp, that company was called YMC Incorporated. It was a biotech pharma company that did drug discovery, drug formulation.

Okay. So we were a chemical engineering kind of firm that looked at assays to very quickly identify new potential drug formulations from benchtop to all the way to kind of manufacturing. Was that his background? Chemical? That was okay. Um, and he had worked for Pfizer in the past. He had worked for Waters Associates in this kind of chemical separation environment and he knew that he could do it better, cleaner, faster, and that's what he did.

But with my college fund. And so somehow got accepted to West Point was not the model cadet while I was at West Point. Got in a little bit of trouble, but that's just fine. They let me out. Uh, and then, uh, really liked the camaraderie of the military. It's about the people. Mm-hmm. Um, there were some bad days, some tough long, uh, deployments, but when it comes down to it, it's really about the people doing some amazing things.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and then left the active duty after the first Gulf War, uh, and then missed it enough to get [00:15:00] back into the Army Reserve. And then I stayed in the Army Reserve for another 25 years or so. Uh, and, and it, and it's great. Uh, so I have friends in every port. Um, I have people all over the world that we dealt with in some really, um, dynamic environments.

Iraq, Afghanistan, some other sporty spots inside the Middle East that continue to email me and say, Hey, Cooley, whatever the rank is, you know, we miss you. You and your folks did a great job first. We appreciate it. Mm-hmm. And that goes a long way. And every time I get one of those, I, I turn around and share it with everybody who's on that team.

Mm-hmm. Because it, it, it really does go a long way. 

Do you know a guy by the name of General Joe Anderson? 

I do know the name. Joe Anderson. Yep. 

Yeah. Every, everybody in the Army's. Oh yeah, I know Joe. Yeah. He, he and I still on a board together in North Virginia and we try to, um, pass deals back and forth to one another.

And I know he went to West Point Sure did. His son went to West Point. Um, how was that experience for you? You said you had some fun. Oh, it, it was a great looking backwards in the rear view mirror. I was not your 

model cadet, so I had a little bit of a problem with authority. Uh, I'm still working through it.[00:16:00] 

Got in trouble as we all got in trouble. A couple hundred. Yeah. So, yeah. Uh, I'm what they call a double century man, so every time you get in trouble they give you a demerit and a couple of demerits means you have to walk the area. Uh, so I had more than 200, uh, area tours, which means I was literally on the area from uh, getting in trouble my spring break freshman year to the end of my junior year.

And then got in more trouble my senior year. 'cause you know, that that whole thing about authority, uh, was, was troubling to me. And my mouth got ahead of my mind sometimes, and I said some things that probably shouldn't have, but I, but I did. Okay. Uh, I learned a lot of lessons and, uh, you know, when you're knocked down is when, uh, you really gotta figure out how to get back up and brush yourself off.

And was that the 

motivating factor while your dad spent your college funds on the startup? It's like, yeah, you need to go there. Uh, you know, I couldn't spell Army before he told 

me that. Uh, I was that little high school kid in New Jersey. You knew it all getting recruited to play baseball, perhaps down here in the south.

Okay. But nobody would sign a scholarship until after the spring season. I said, well, I'm, I don't wanna stay in northern Jersey. [00:17:00] So, of course then I went to school in New York and it was just a great opportunity. Uh, I, I didn't know it, uh, until you're kind of looking back at it, but my friends there at, at West Point, you know, that Rolodex is, is, um, is strong.

Um mm-hmm. So as soon as there's a problem or concern or a question, I pick up the phone. Uh, and literally there's a thousand people on the other end if I need to talk to somebody. Mm-hmm. And that's, that doesn't include all the other classes. Uh, and we do that. That's, we mentioned we had a kind of West Point Founder's Day this past weekend, right?

Yeah. We had, you know, uh, graduates from just two years ago all the way to kind of the early sixties, and there's a bond there. It's, it's a palpable physical bond. And then we had our Navy Naval Academy buddies upstairs, and there's a bond with them too. It's a brotherhood and sisterhood. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's a little bit like the brotherhoodhood and sisterhood in the entrepreneurial startup space.

Uh, but, but different, right? They're mm-hmm. They're, those bonds are forged in, you know, blood, fire, water on the, like the entrepreneur space. Uh, and a lot of those folks are entrepreneurs. It's just different to be an innovator and entrepreneur inside of this very structured thing called the military.

Mm-hmm. But there's ways to do it. [00:18:00] Uh, and when you do it, you do it very, very successfully in the organization that's been pretty strong in terms of following rank and order, then can see a different way to do it. And that goes a long way. 

Yeah. Most, the most successful startups I've found is, is military experienced leaders.

Like one, you know, obviously the, the old saying is, you bet on the jockey, not the horse. And, and usually I look for, you know, demonstrated leadership capabilities because, you know, startups are gonna have good days and bad days, but it's the leadership that's gonna pull you through, you know, to make sure that you can see the next day and not go bankrupt.

Case in point, there was a, a gentleman by the name of Blake Hall who launched a company called, UH, troops Swap back in 2009. And he came out of two tours in Iraq, went to Harvard, got his MBA, and he was raising some funds. And one of the companies that I invest with, blue Venture Investors out of, uh, Northern Virginia.[00:19:00] 

Mm-hmm. And, um, I immediately just said, that guy, you know, I would get behind him, whatever company he led, it's gonna be successful. Yep. You, you could just tell, you know, right, the, the, the grit and the determination. The resilience. You, you can't teach that in a classroom. You know, you really has to be forged by experience.

I, I, I agree a hundred percent. And you, we see that in the military. Uh, and when I invest, I, I too bet on the team now the military is, is used to operating in chaos all the time and uncertainty. And then you throw in dynamic operating environment environments. Mm-hmm. Uh, and those who can do it well are, are very, very successful.

So I, I, I take the same approach. Mm-hmm. Certainly the team and if there's military background in there or somebody on the team has that military, you kind of structure to 'em, I feel more comfortable, at least on the decision making side of it. They, they're able to think through very complex, dynamic environments and come to an answer, uh, but then look at second and third order effects and really kind of anticipate what's around it.

We call that over the hill and around the corner. And if you have the ability to kind of sense that mm-hmm. Uh, and it can intuit [00:20:00] then, then I, I, I would bet on that team for sure. Mm-hmm. 

I know like civilian, uh, employees that work for, like the intelligence community I'm familiar with, um, there's a transition, I think it's two months, six months, but they go through a process where they transition from government life to private sector.

And, you know, they make introductions and they kind of go through and educate you on, Hey, here's how the life works on the other side. And, and try to like, here you go. Mm-hmm. You know? Um, is there anything like that for the startup community, uh, for the military, for people like yourself that want to come outta the military service and jump right into the phrase of entrepreneurship?

There are a couple. Um, John Panion is part of, um, warrior Rising and Vet to CEO. Mm-hmm. Um, the Honor Foundation is here in town. Uh, it, it deals primarily with, um, transitioning, uh, special operations folks. Mm-hmm. There, there are a lot of, um, groups that try to do it. Mm-hmm. Uh, but oftentimes there, there's smaller, smaller and very regionally based.

Mm-hmm. And you've gotta get the right people to do, be the mentors as [00:21:00] well. Um, it comes with a lot of backing, so The Honor Foundation does it very, very well. They've got a lot of kind of corporate money that comes in. A lot of the transitioning guys have continued to put money back into it. Mm-hmm. Um, so the answer is yes.

There are some, the military, uh, you know, unfortunately doesn't do a very good job of preparing their exiting war fighters or warriors to, to enter the, the non-military space. Mm-hmm. Um, we try, we just, we, we, we don't have the right skill sets or the right capability to even have them prepare a, write a resume the right way.

Mm-hmm. Right. It, it, in the military it's a different language, different culture, different lexicon. Um, and you've gotta take a 22 page, uh. Summary of your jobs and turn it into a one page very thoughtful resume and CV that somebody wants to hire mm-hmm. Uh, from and really just wanna do is start the conversation.

And so, although our organizations, the best thing to do is use the networks, right? Is to call up those people that have mentor you in the past that are now made the transition. Um, to have them give you that, that heads [00:22:00] up of really what's going on in the world. Mm-hmm. And, and so, um, oftentimes folks will wanna retire to a certain location, so that will minimize their ability to find a particular job.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so you've gotta have those conversations with 'em. 'cause they're just not used to that. Right. They've been for 20, 30 years, army, military Marine Corps told 'em where to go, what to wear, what time to get up. Right. And think in a very structured model, you know, a lot of that structure goes away.

And some folks have a hard time in that, in that very, um, kind of open environment. The, the structure's gone, their team is gone. Mm-hmm. The camaraderie is not there. I mean, it's not as collaborative in, in the industry world as it is in the military world. Mm-hmm. So it takes some adjustment period. You know, we, on the Army Reserve side, in the National Guard, because we have a foot in both camps, we have a foot in the uniform side and the civilian side, we're a little easier in terms of, you know, moving back and forth, uh, in those, those different kind of cultures.

Mm-hmm. Um, some of the active duty folks have a little bit more difficulty transitioning. 

Mm-hmm. So, having served over almost four [00:23:00] decades, it seems, um, you've seen a lot of different leadership styles from administration down to, uh, deployments and, and, uh, in the military. What is your, your current thought, where things are today, where they used to be?

As we talked about a little earlier, you know, the military's been around for a long, long time. Mm-hmm. And it's meant to be the calming influence. Right? So we work, we, we swear an oath and, and not many folks swear oath anymore and understand what the true meaning behind an oath is. But to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign, domestic, uh, you know, that's a big deal.

Mm-hmm. Um, and the one thing about the military is you see leadership very, very quickly. Um, so commanders will be there for a year and a half, 18 months, two years, maybe three years at most, and then you'll, you'll rotate through. So either you as a commander can test your leadership skills, or you as a subordinate can watch a number of leaders very, very quickly.

I, I am ultimately confident that the military will be in a great spot. I think some of the uncertainty at the federal level in Northern Virginia right now is putting some [00:24:00] ripples inside of all the organizations to include the Department of Defense. Uh, but, but I'm confident that leadership will do the right thing.

Leadership doesn't, needs to do the right thing, but everybody below them needs to do the right thing as well. Mm-hmm. And so we have accountability down to Private Cooley. Right. The most junior person in the army or the military has to understand what their job is. Um, I, I think we're doing some, some incredible opportunities in raising the salaries.

We're trying to pay some of our young soldiers mm-hmm. Um, just to put them on par so that Right. Their families aren't struggling with, with food insecurity. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and that's, this military is an absolute lifestyle. Um, we live on bases in many cases. Um, but it, it's important that the leadership who oftentimes have been riding a desk for a long, long time understand what it's like to be back in the trenches.

And I say in the trenches, not overseas, but in the trenches being Private Cooley with a wife, two kids struggling to make kind of ends meet. And what does that mean when you ask me to go do certain things around the world? Uh, I need to have some assurances. My family's gonna be set. And the whole thing kind of post service, what does it mean for [00:25:00] retirees?

Mm-hmm. Um, the VA is, is in a difficult spot. Uh, lots and lots of our veterans are in some, um, some really difficult mental and physical places right now. Mm-hmm. Uh, not just from what we've done for the last 25 years, but for decades. And so we really need to be thoughtful and judicious about how we help those folks around the world.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think you mentioned a comment, you said, uh, Northern Virginia is going through an adjustment. I would say a shocking, uh, adjustment at this point. You know, people being laid off, uh, because of Doge and other things. But, you know, to be honest, I mean, there's a lot of bloat mm-hmm. In the federal government.

Yep. And unless you can see it day to day, you really don't understand. And you read what's in the newspaper or listen to what the media tells you, but it, it, it needed to happen. There's, you know, there's, there's some adjustments. I mean, what is it? Our, um, spending expenditures, GDPs now 123%. That means we're we're paying more mm-hmm.

In expenses than what we're actually producing. And I think if people [00:26:00] truly understood that, like, wait a minute, our expenses are more than our income. Sort of like what you do at home. Right. You know, if your bills are higher than what you're making, then you're, you're working in a deficit. You need to make some adjustments.

You need to, to cut back on some things. I agree. And, and this has been kinda long overdue in my opinion. 

I, I would agree with you. I, I, I can't speak for the other departments, but you know, that the Department of Defense had some opportunities to improve. I'll just be very, very clear. And they see that, um, and, and they're aware of it.

And they're, I I, I know that they're working on it right now. The interesting thing with the Department of Defense is that we're always flying a deterrent airplane. Building at the same time. So we, while we're restructuring, we still have to do certain things and the deterrence is what we want to do. We want to be a force that's visible in as many places as we can.

So the bad guys are deterred because they don't want us to turn on the other half of the military, which is go win. 

Mm-hmm. 

Uh, and what we need our civilian leaders to, to do is right. Not put us out there unnecessarily, but put us in a place [00:27:00] to be successful when the end goal is to win. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's, that's very different than the way we've been fighting for the last couple decades.

Um, none of us will have a hard time going in harm's way, but we'd like to have the ability to do our job and do it well and tell us what, what the end state is. Let us know what the goal is and we'll, we'll do what we can. But don't, don't put us out there unnecessarily. Don't put us out there in front of the other portions of mm-hmm.

You know, geopolitical influence. Right. Um, and then we'll, we'll do our job. We'll absolutely do our job. 

So one of the common elements I've learned with this podcast and talking to folks like yourself. Is that growing up there's always been some influential person that has created the sense of urgency and that spark or desire to kind of be ambitious and, and really put your foot forward.

And it sounds like your dad was that for you. Is that, is that accurate? 

My dad and my grandfather, so my grandfather, little Sicilian, uh, red hair, blue eyed, uh, gentleman, you know, told me, [00:28:00] you know Robbie, when, when you're thinking about what you're doing in life, if you're the assistant broom cleaner. Be the best assistant broom cleaner that you can.

Mm-hmm. And then his other comment to me was, you know, be careful of the asses you're chewing today. 'cause they're the butts you're kissing tomorrow. That's interesting concept. But it was very interesting. And so he's got a whole book full of, of, uh, pop popm we call him. But, but, so he instilled in me very, very early the thought of, you know, if I, if I asked you to do something mm-hmm.

Do it and, and do it to the end and continue to do it until you have learned everything and you're an expert on it, and then teach somebody else. Mm-hmm. Then my dad gave me the other side of it, which is, Hey, when we're gonna do something, let's, let's think through this and let's do it all in. Mm-hmm. So the two of them have been most influential in our family.

I, so I, I I think it is, you know, entrepreneurship and innovation comes through DNA. Mm-hmm. Not everybody should be in the military. Not everybody should be an entrepreneur. Right. Um. And, and you know, the entrepreneur, the other thing that they really both taught us is, is how to, how to fail. Fail well, fail fast.

Mm-hmm. So you're gonna get knocked down, you're gonna make a mistake, you're gonna miss a, um, a due date or something. Mm-hmm. But it's, how do you [00:29:00] respond to that? Um, you can feel sad for about 30 seconds, but you gotta get back up and kind of figure out what the next step is. Right. And that, that was very family driven.

Um, there wasn't a lot of, you know, handholding and, and that kind of stuff growing up. It was, Hey, made a mistake. What are we gonna learn from it? What are we gonna do next? Right. 

Yeah. I mean, that's, that's where the ultimate growth happens through failure. A hundred percent. You know, without failure, you don't really understand what you need to do next and how to adjust.

That's right. And pivot, move forward. Yep. Yeah. My dad had a similar quote. He basically said, don't half ass anything. Mm-hmm. You know, you gotta be all in, like you said, and whatever, whatever you decide to do in life, be all in. Give it 110%. That's right. Be the best of what you have. So That's, that's awesome.

So. So once you joined the military, you went active duty and then you switched to reserve? I did. You said you transitioned into private sector? 

I did. I did. So, uh, my dad started his company, uh, with my college fund grew it. So about eight years later he said, I'd love for you to come back and kind of help us.

Okay. [00:30:00] So I was, uh, stationed in Hawaii. I was getting ready to go back to the field Artillery advanced officers course. Okay. And then I was gonna go to Europe after that. So it was, it was, it was a big decision. I started actually, like, again, the military's really interesting. Um, a lot of opportunity and challenges and I said, you know, we're coming out of the Gulf War.

Things are a little different now. The army often goes in these cycles. We were in kind of one of these low periods. Mm-hmm. So I said, let me, let me try my foot in, in the other side. So I, I agreed to, to leave, uh, joined him. He had moved the company from Jersey down here to Wilmington, North Carolina. Hence that's how I got here.

Mm-hmm. Um. And it was great. It was a great, uh, opportunity again to leverage a lot of the, the, the junior leader lessons mm-hmm. In the military into this thing called the civilian world and chemistry. Chemical engineering was my background by kind of trade and, and study. It was a natural fit. And I had been around this business now for, for 8, 9, 10 years.

And so I, I kind of knew it, uh, and, and I was, uh, I was, uh, really excited about what we could do with the company. Then four years later, we sold it. Uh, my dad, uh, had a great exit. I [00:31:00] signed a bunch of non-compete clauses. My golf game couldn't get any worse. And then I was the guy who drove up on the last day to Carolina, to Kenan Flagler to drop me off my MBA submission.

And somehow they picked me up as well. And that was a great two years. And then from there it was hired again by Deloitte and then from there, uh, Phillips Medical System. So it's a, it's crazy kind of corporate ride. Right. 

So you, you were working with your dad's company? I was. Through, through the exit. I was, yep.

Yeah. How, how was that process? 

So here's another thing for entrepreneurs. Uh, you know, we love our babies, we love our businesses, and sometimes we get, uh, too close to it and we want to kind of squeeze it and, um, suffocate it. Mm-hmm. Uh, and my dad was that right? It was his startup. It was his company. Um, we were partnered with a company in Japan, uh, and I had a little bit more of an arm's length transaction so I could step away from the emotion mm-hmm.

Uh, behind it, uh, and then do the hard work, which was, so there were three months in a row where every other week I was flying from Wilmington to Tokyo mm-hmm. To negotiate the deal, to make sure we got it done because my dad had become too close to the business and wasn't, um, able to kind of separate [00:32:00] business from, from emotion and family.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and then we did, we got it done. It was a great deal and everybody shook hands at the end of it, but Right. It, it was, it was interesting to kind of flow through that exit portion of it. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, international lawyers, we don't talk about international, uh, business school. Go, go sell a company overseas pretty quickly.

Right. You can't, uh, you can't learn that in a book. Uh, and so that was great and, but when I got to MBA school, I had been in a startup, had an exit of a startup. I had been in the Army for about 10 years. I had done some things. I think I was older than some of my professors. And so for me, sitting in the back of some of the classes at Kenan-Flag were really interesting because I had a little bit more of the life experience view to Right.

An academic PhD who had gone from undergrad to grad to PhD was very, very good on the theory and I could apply the theory mm-hmm. Uh, to it in, in kind of different environments. Uh, but yeah, Kenan-Flagler was a great program. 

Yeah. I had a, a buddy who tried to buy a company. From a Japanese mm-hmm. Uh, conglomerate.

And, uh, he spent, we invested eight [00:33:00] months mm-hmm. Of negotiating back and forth. And it was weird because his family owned business in, in Japan, and I guess the hierarchies has to speak and whatever, and some person wasn't available at one certain times. So routinely it would take them three or four weeks to respond Absolutely.

To any type of, uh, term and condition. And it just, after, after eight months, he's like, you know what? Man, I screw this. I can't do this. So it, it is hard. And there's, there's another lesson right there is to, is to understand 

the culture. You're culture, you're, you're, uh, operating in, and the Japanese culture is different than the Chinese culture.

Mm-hmm. I spent a year, a decade with Phyllis Medical Systems working in and outta China, and that's a whole nother environment. Mm-hmm. Uh, but the Japanese are very set in their, their business culture. Um, there's a hierarchy. The way you sit at a table, there's a hierarchy who speaks. Um, and if you don't know that, uh, the Japanese will out negotiate you because we, America, they understand our culture better than we understand their culture.

Mm-hmm. 

Um, so stereotypically they'll have a lot of silence in a meeting and [00:34:00] Americans feel uncomfortable with silence mm-hmm. In their business structure. They're just thinking, in our world, we think we made a mistake. And so we start to out negotiate ourselves very, very quickly. Mm-hmm. Uh, okay, so 10 million's not right, it must be 8 million.

And they're just sitting there thinking, don't think, let let them have that time. If you understand your points mm-hmm. Then stick to your guns. Right. But don't start to out negotiate yourself, because you will do that very, very quickly. Then they'll smile and they go through the same process. And then if eight's not good enough in your mind, that must be six.

Mm-hmm. But if you don't know that they, they, right. And it's not just Japan, it's in the Middle East, it's in Europe. Right. Everybody has their own unique business style. Mm-hmm. You've gotta do your due diligence and prep before you go into those environments. Either to grow a business to, you know, extend a product line, but certainly on an exit, uh, or, um, some type of acquisition.

Make sure you find the right expertise to help you there. 

Yeah. Was it a good exit for your, your family? It was 

good. It for sure. My dad never had to work again. Again. My golf game was terrible. So 

we'll get into that for sure. So I'm [00:35:00] just curious on a multiple of ebitda, um, is that how you evaluated multiple sales revenue or ebitda?

So we, the answer is yeah. So there's a hundred different ways to value a company. Mm-hmm. The only one that really is important is between the buyer and the seller. Mm-hmm. And so we were a strategic fit more than, or a multiple of ebitda. Okay. Or, or net sales to this particular company. It was actually.

The largest company in this industry. And then we had some very unique, um, intellectual property, some solutions, and that's what they were buying more than, more than an ebitda. Right. 

Kind of. Right. So you patented some technology that they wanted. We, we had some 

patents, we had some solutions. We, the other thing we had were relationships.

And in the pharmaceutical world, uh, because of the FD certification regulations, if you change a process, uh, you've gotta go back and do complete recertification. That's just very, very costly. Mm-hmm. So there was, there was intrinsic value into the relationships that we had built up as well. 

Yeah. That's one of the things I look for in startups when I'm making investments is intellectual property and patents.

Sure. I know it's very difficult to have a patent 'cause you're just starting a business, but, but it's expensive to go. It is through the patent [00:36:00] process. But you know, uh, if, if, if you're really determined and, and you, you really believe in your solution, then you need to patent the technology. Agreed. If it's something that's unique and, and take that, that risk off the table.

'cause having a patent. Provides extra validation and, and protection from your investment. 

I agree. I agree a hundred percent. You know, the interesting thing is, um, at Phillips's Medical Systems, right? Large Fortune 50 company, we, we had lots of patents, but then what we also did is we created a culture inside of our engineering department.

We literally did a Moores law calculation because we were operating around the world, especially in China, how quickly our technology and science would be copied. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so we had to introduce our next, uh, series of next issues of technology and innovation. Three months before that, they, their copied product would come to the market.

Mm-hmm. So we wanted to out innovate them, and we built a culture in a, in a community that was very different from what large Phillips had, but we were successful. So we knew if the Chinese were gonna copy us in [00:37:00] 18 months, we'd have to deliver our next product. 15 months. Mm-hmm. And it just got faster and faster.

And then when you build that culture inside and you compliment like the IP structure and the foundation mm-hmm. With a culture of innovation now, those are the two best things. So I, I do, I look for, for patented technology in my world. Mm-hmm. Uh, but I also look for a culture that's not gonna rest on its laurels and continues to out to innovate because we know Right.

Once you a have a patent, everybody can see it. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then competition comes at you pretty quickly. So if you don't, you don't build that internal team to kind of outthink everybody else. Mm-hmm. Uh, you, you, you're not gonna, you may win in the short term, but not in the long, long term. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then what we found is, um, you know, we would, we would find interesting pockets of, of intellectual property that we, we had no thought when we were building X, Y, and Z.

Mm-hmm. 

And those were the ones that actually became the most valuable because that was the next generation of true kind of market trend or product trend or science trend. And then we were ahead of it. Mm-hmm. Which was really kind of fun as well. 

Remind me again. Chemical engineering [00:38:00] biotechnology. What, what was your dad's business?

And 

so, yeah, YMC Incorporated was a drug discovery drug formulation company. So we did high performance liquid chromatography, which is a science of separation. Right. Uh, so we were able to help the large, uh, pharmaceutical and biotech companies do very rapid drug assay, which is when you either find a drug or a chemical compound Okay.

Or you make one, uh, is it gonna be, what's the efficacy towards this particular disease state, or, or, or morbidity. Mm-hmm. So with our science, you are able to test that very, very quickly. And that's what we call benchtop. And then we helped them all the way through kind of production. So we were, we were working with Eli Lilly, with Pfizer, with Genentech, Biogen, all the big pharmaceutical companies from the start of the bench all the way to the production of the drug.

Mm-hmm. Um, and that, that was, that was a lot of fun. 

And is that technology still used today? Sure is, yeah. 

Sure is. Uh, people have used that in, um, I. In the alcohol business. Okay. It's a separation. People have used that to, uh, break down untapped in it, uh, in a very similar science to look at the chemical compounds of wines and beers to see [00:39:00] if that'd be something that you would like the taste mm-hmm.

Of well, which is interesting. So that, that, that chemistry, that science is still there for sure. 

Mm-hmm. And can that be applied to other industries like petroleum or, or you It sure can. Yeah. 

Um, it, and actually there's the, the technology has come a long way. Mm-hmm. There's now kinda materials based technology that look at, um, affinity to bring certain chemical compounds onto this material mm-hmm.

And then protect those and let everything else flow through because that's your target compound. And then you can just kind of clean it off later. Now you have a pure sample. Right. Um, and we were doing that with these big, huge test tubes, essentially made of steel and silica. Mm-hmm. And we would put chemicals bonded onto them, uh, and you would find a target that would bond to that chemical on your silica, and then you would flush it off the end.

So all the garbage goes through. And then you wait, and then you just release the actual pure, now you've got the pure drug that you were looking for. Yeah. That's fun. 

That's fantastic. It was great. That's a very unique experience. Not many people have, you know, the opportunity to go through a startup to an exit and kind of [00:40:00] see the beginning to the end and how it transitions into another business and Absolutely.

It was amazing. Yeah. And I was also fortunate, I, I got to live in Japan for about four or five months. So when I came off active duty mm-hmm. And knew I was gonna join the company, um, both the Japanese leadership and our leadership here in the States thought it'd be a great idea for me to spend time in Japan to understand the business.

Mm-hmm. So it, it was amazing. So talking about learning the culture, right. Living in the culture. This was post-acquisition? This was pre, this was pre, this was me leaving active duty before I joined YMC officially. Okay. Uh, to learn the business from the inside out. Got it. So understood. Now I understood a little bit more the Japanese culture, the Japanese science, the way they think.

The way they develop innovation and technology mm-hmm. The way they think about businesses. Uh, all of that is really kind of important for, for, for my making, uh, uh, um, you know, and understand my foundational understanding. And that helped us kind of grow very, very rapidly when I got got back to Wilmington.

Mm-hmm. Was there any work you had to do post acquisition? 'cause I know a lot of people think that selling a [00:41:00] company is great and have a big party and exit and then you can for sure transition to something else months, but typically six months. There's a lot of work after the fund. There's a ton 

of work.

Uh, we sold, um, sold in, in, I, I think June. I still had really kind of June until I started at, at, uh, Kenan-Flagler to, to be there full time. Oh, this was 97, 9 7. Okay. Ninety-seven. Um. Yep. Uh, so I was there full time, uh, to make sure we were transitioning, um, with the, the purchaser. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then the science and the technology, then all the relationships.

There was a lot of flying to all the pharmaceutical and biotech companies to do the handoff from one to the other to make sure in their mind that it was gonna be a smooth, seamless transition to make sure on the acquisi, the acquire side, that they knew who all the right players were. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then for six months while I was at business school, I would have to spend a couple hours, uh, every day.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and that kind of tapered off, but usually it's a six month, at least a six month process post acquisition for sure. 

Because it was a foreign buyer. Uh, did you have to go through any regulations and approvals with the government? 

All of them. Both of them, right? [00:42:00] Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, we weren't, we weren't large enough to turn dials from kinda an SEC particular situation, but we did, we had to get approvals from the Japanese, um, plus the American government to, to make it just a standard acquisition like this.

Mm-hmm. And do you see that a continuing trend where, oh, I do all foreign buyers buying American ip. 

I, I hope we have less foreign. Buyers buying us domestic intellectual property and, and products. I, I think we need to really generate some internal growth. Mm-hmm. Um, certainly chips. Um, if you look at some of the high tech, uh, just our supply chain vulnerability, we really need to do a lot more onshore manufacturing and, and domestic production.

Right. 

Um, but in the interim, I, there's gonna be a lot of, and most businesses are gonna go global at some point, and so you really have to be thoughtful and judicious on who, on your intellectual, your, your international intellectual property team, your international business team, and your international council.

Because rules and regulations change pretty quickly and you don't want to, A tariff is a great kind of opportunity if you don't understand the impact to tariff today, what it means to tomorrow. You [00:43:00] make, you may make some short term decisions that put your business at a, at a deficit. Mm-hmm. Uh, in terms of looking really longer term.

And on the flip side, if you have. Um, you know, a footprint in Asia or the Middle East or in Europe. There's other implications on the back end of it too. So you, you've gotta be really, really global in mind in the way you think about, uh, either growth or certainly on the acquisition side as well. 

Mm-hmm.

What is your opinion on how we can turn the channel on that idea, knowing that one of the biggest contributing factors is the cost of labor, and one of the reasons people go offshore is because it's much cheaper. You know, you, um, not even talking about human rights and, and all the other issues, but, uh, the cost of, of labor and insurance and, and just doing business here in the United States is way more expensive than going over to Asia and other areas.

So over time, you and I have been around a little, we've, we've seen people go offshore, offshore. We saw a lot of business in manufacturing. Third, fourth party logistics and manufacturing. Go to China and go to Asia. [00:44:00] Mm-hmm. Go to Mexico. Uh, and that was, that was based on a financial calculus of cost of labor primarily.

Mm-hmm. When you look. Uh, more deeply in the true cost of the business. Uh, and then you look at things like supply chain, vulnerability and access to key materials and raw materials, uh, and some of the, the human rights issues in some of the other countries, you know, what's there, there is the financial currency issue, but there's also a social currency kind of component that's a little bit more intangible.

Uh, but I, I think, I think Covid showed us pretty quickly that we're gonna have to have a lot more of that domestic capability here. And I say here, right on the continuous 48 or certainly, um, you know, within the 50 states, just so that we have a little bit more control over it. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, we've been.

Very comfortable as a society in buying, uh, you know, eight foot television for about 150 bucks right now. And there's gonna be a little bit of pain, uh, in, in the wallets. But I mean, we, we've also demonstrated our, our own fiscal responsibilities a little upside down with mm-hmm. More than a trillion plus [00:45:00] now in credit card debt, that's not a, that's not a smart consumer.

Mm-hmm. Uh, on the domestic side. So we've gotta be very, very careful. But the bottom line is we can't, uh, certainly in today's uncertain geopolitical, uh, chaotic, frantic space, we can't allow key portions of our supply chain And, and not just department of Defense, but in technology chips. Mm-hmm. Um, AI power generation.

Right. All the things that are ancillary to really us being able to do what we wanna do. We, we should have a lot more of it here. Mm-hmm. And does that come at an additional cost? It sure does. Right. But the cost of not having it available and somebody turn off the light switch at a different point, uh, is gonna be even more costly as well.

Yeah. And, and one of the reasons why, you know, the raw materials and, and the minerals. That go into the silicon and the chips are, are gonna be valuable in the future because that's where the growth is gonna happen is auto automation and mm-hmm. And, and, and computers and technology. Um, it was shocking to see the transition.

I was reading something, uh, a couple weeks ago about how China [00:46:00] has been making some serious investments, uh, in Africa, you know, and in other parts of the world and even the Caribbean. Um, there was an article about how China's starting to put stations and, and mm-hmm. Presence in some of these areas. And it, this seems like they're, they're, they're, they're creeping all over the world.

And, you know, we, like you said, we need to be a little more assertive with our own dominance to protect the future. Um, what do you, what do you think of Trump's um, plan? 

Can, can I speak to that one first? Sure, sure. So, so you're talking about the One Belt One Road Initiative from China. Yes. And, uh, as a, as a guy in the military who's been around the world, uh, I've seen it firsthand.

So the Chinese have a very, um, uh, bold plan to grow, right? They wanna go back to the Silk Road model. Mm-hmm. The one belt, one road, and they're doing it through the debt chat strategy. So they're making huge investments in, uh, Asia, in the Middle East and in Africa, knowing that the [00:47:00] country that they're dealing with, whether it's building a port or, uh, a pipeline or a railroad or a highway, um, that they'll never be able to pay it back.

And it, and it's done by design. So, wherever I was in Africa, um, there would be one Rob Cooley and a couple of our soldiers. Uh, there'll be a hundred Chinese with bags and bags of yuan and renminbi, most of the African nations, most of the nations around the world would rather partner with the US. Uh, but we've, we've demonstrated our, our lack of true partnership ability mm-hmm.

In the last couple years. And if, you know, we're offering a dollar to help support, you know, the Chinese are offering a thousand dollars. It's a pretty easy financial calculation. Mm-hmm. So they've been very, very good at what they're doing. And, and their intent is not to spread, uh, true, uh, economic growth.

The Chinese are there specifically to remove raw materials and have access points that they don't, they wouldn't otherwise have. Right. So their first overseas base was in Djibouti. Um, they didn't put it in Djibouti because they thought that was a really interesting country. They put [00:48:00] it there 'cause that was the hub of the United States.

Mm-hmm. African kind of impact in there. Mm-hmm. Um, so literally everywhere Rob went in Africa, uh, there would be a Chinese team following us around. 'cause they wanted to know what we were doing, how we were doing it, who we were talking to. So that debt strategy is gonna be very, very problematic because now the Chinese are calling their debts due.

Mm-hmm. Um, and there's classic examples of, of folks defaulting on their, their loans and now the Chinese have access to it. They didn't even go in there with the ability to teach. The African nations or the Asian nations had to do things. They literally brought engineering battalions outta the Chinese army.

Mm. To set it up. They built China towns that local people were really weren't allowed to go into. So it wasn't, it wasn't a collaboration of any sense. Mm-hmm. Um, and the Chinese are still treated on the global space as a developing country. 

Mm-hmm. 

Uh, and Right. Their cost of capital is a lot less. But if you look at China right now, they're, they're in trouble not only from, um, societal impact.

Uh, you know, the one child law has put them upside down for quite a while, uh, [00:49:00] but they're not able to grow as much as they had, right? Mm-hmm. They would be, their internal growth has stalled. I mean, you can literally look at the, uh, in China, the buildings that have been built, the neon alleys, that they're empty, completely empty, and, uh, their, their real estate markets are, are collapsing very, very quickly and they can't bring in capital.

Mm-hmm. Hard currency. Mm-hmm. Uh, so there's a lot, but China's been very, very good at what they do. Mm-hmm. Uh, lots of public, um. Play in terms of perhaps influencing elections illegally. 

Mm-hmm. 

Around, uh, and again, when a buckets of cash come over, it's, it's hard for some folks and nations that are really starved for cash to say no to that.

So they're very, very good at what they do. You know, how does the US respond to that is gonna be very, very important. And this is not just the Taiwan issue, this is not just the South China Sea issue, but this is a global impact. Pretty, pretty amazing. 

Yeah. It's pretty scary when you think about what the next 20, 30, 50 years will look like.

Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. The trend's not good. They say the trend's, your friend, [00:50:00] in that, in that case it doesn't look very good. You gotta be careful. 

You, you gotta watch and anticipate. Right. And we have some very dynamic senior leaders in these countries right now, so. 

So with all this unique experience, both in the military, geopolitical, and your dad's business, and applying that through mergers and acquisitions process, you must have been very popular in your MBA class at UNC.

We, we, uh, we had a, we have a great group, so while the military's a bunch of brotherhood and, and sisterhood on my Carolina side as well, uh, yeah, we had just some amazing individuals and um, you know, we all helped each other out. We had guys that were, you know, financiers that have done very, very well on Wall Street.

Mm-hmm. Um, in the banking space. A lot of startup companies, a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of, uh, self-made folks, um, which is great. Uh, but I would, again, when I looked at a number of different business schools mm-hmm. Um, I, I thought the collegial environment of Kenan-Flagler was, was what I, where I would do better at.

And it was spot on. Mm-hmm. I had a chance to do a semester abroad in [00:51:00] Australia. Oh, nice. Yeah, that was not, not too shabby either. Um, but really those are the best friends you have. So if I have any issues on Wall Street or banking or finance. But those are the bi, the, the guys I'll call up pretty quickly.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and then it's, you know, it's behind the curtain. You don't have to worry about any kind of nonsense. Yeah. And you get the no kidding here. Here's the risks, here's the rewards. How can I help you? And that's what it always ends up with, is, you know, how can I help you? 

I know your daughter who said she was at Campbell.

She's at Campbell. First year in medical school. Medical school. And, and your, your two older sons, um, did, did any of them attend UNC or have, did they go to here in, in North Carolina? Nope. 

Where did they go to school? So, so when they were coming up, uh, you know, I said If you wanna go into the military, I'll support you, but don't follow my shoes 'cause it's not probably the right one.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and you know, this family's done quite a bit for the military. Mm-hmm. Uh, my, my middle sister was in the army. My dad was in the army. So, you know, we've been, we've been a military family. It's really a family business now. 70% of all the people who joined the military come from military family.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and I wasn't gonna push 'em into the military. [00:52:00] Uh. But they've done very, very well in their, in their places. And so, uh, Abby was accepted to Chapel Hill, but she went to Campbell University. She, she thought the smaller school would be more of her liking. And she's on her third degree right now.

So I guess she's, she's doing okay at Campbell. That's great. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. And then Robbie went to, um, university of Mount Olive and studied AG Agri business. Okay. And now he's in Dallas and he sells information for Gartner. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then Grayson, uh, he did go to Chapel Hill. Uh, you have one? We have one.

We have one grad. Uh, we were so happy last night when the selection committee gave us a, a nod, uh, in, in the big dance, which we didn't think was gonna happen. Right. Uh, which is great. Um, and then he went off, uh, to Boston College guys law degree. Okay. And now he's in Charleston too. So we are quite fortunate and humble as a family to, to be in, uh, such a great spot.

Yeah. Boston area's phenomenal. Absolutely. Little bit, not in the winter time, but, uh, 

not in the winter time. That's why I live down here in the south now for sure. 

Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the winters in in the Northeast are kind of brutal. 

Yeah. And it's getting worse and you know, when you come out to [00:53:00] your car and you have to shovel snow off the top of your car.

Yeah. That, that's time for me to leave. 

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my daughter, she goes to school near Boston, and, and this was the first year, you know, she's been there, she's a junior, but this is the first year they actually had real Boston snow. Mm-hmm. Last couple years has kind of been, you know, really a nothing burger.

Global warming. Yeah. But, uh, but she, she would call routinely just upset. Oh my God. It's 15 inches of snow again. 

I, I love Boston. I love that city. Yeah. I think it's my favorite city on the east coast. Yeah. Boston's great. It is. Yeah. Yeah. 

I could live there, just not in the wintertime. 

Yeah. I, I'd have to be a second home for sure.

Right. Spring and summer. 

Yeah. Going to a, a, a baseball game at Fenway. Mm-hmm. Such, such fun. 

I'm a Red Sox and a Cubs fan. Are you? Oh yeah, absolutely. So when you go back to two stadiums that were built in the 19 Yeah. Early 19 hundreds. Yeah. Uh, it it it's part of nostalgia 

for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a great experience.

Yep. Would recommend that to anybody just to go see a Red Sox game. Absolutely. Yeah. Actually just saw the drop [00:54:00] Kick Murphy's a couple weeks ago in concert. Speaking of Boston. So it's crazy Irish rock band. Oh, they're so much fun. They're, they're good. I've listened to a lot 

of them over the weekend for St.

Patrick's Day, which is today For sure. So, yeah, 

yeah, yeah. Do anything for St. Patrick's Day or 

We're gonna go out and try to find some corn, beef, and cabbage. Oh yeah. Uh, and get a couple pints of Guinness for sure. 

Yeah, you have to. I, 

I must do. 

So after your dad's exit Yep. What, what happened after that?

Did he wanna get back and is that where you, you kind of ventured in some of these other entrepreneurial areas or? 

Well, that's when I went off to business school. Okay. And then kind of went on that path. And then he stayed, he stayed connected for sure. So he was always consulting with a couple folks mm-hmm.

Um, into similar businesses. And then he, he started to get smart and he said, you know, I like fly fishing. So he went to work with a fly fishing company that manufactured van stall reels. Mm-hmm. Uh, and he's been a fly fisherman ever since. Uh, so, you know, that's what great exits give you the opportunity to do is, is do what you wanna do when you wanna do it.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and he's done that for years and years, and actually, so he's [00:55:00] 85 years old now, and he's still on phone calls with some of the companies that he's been working with. That's great. So he's, he's always in the game. Yeah. And I think that's also part of the DNA of an entrepreneur is you, you're never out of it.

Mm-hmm. Uh, but you can get out of it as much as you want to. Right. And then you can kind of move and apply your skills and resources in some really fun spots. Right. 

So when was it that you decided to throw your hat in the ring and be a business owner? 

So, I mean, I, I, I think I was an entrepreneur back in kind of grade school, right?

Mm-hmm. I was the guy who strapped my lawnmower to the back of my bike in New Jersey and rode up and down the hills, mowing people's lawns. And I said, that's a little crazy. Then I hired a couple folks to help me do it. Yeah. And I did that before being a lifeguard. Uh, and then hired some lifeguard folks to do that and, and then, uh, you know, finished high school that way and just kept that kind of entrepreneurial spirit.

Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, one is, I'm, I'm, I'm not very good at being bored. Uh, I get myself in even more trouble that way. Mm-hmm. And so these are all fun things and, and you get to try and test and you do some fun, you know, fun things with some great, great folks and that, that's really what it comes down to about the people.

Mm-hmm. And then apply [00:56:00] that in West Point a little bit, sometimes a little bit too much, like I said, uh, got in a little bit of trouble and then in the army the same way. And then, you know, that's a, that's a leadership learning lab. Uh, and then you apply that in the civilian side. And because I was running those lives concurrently for so long, I could test something in the military.

See, I would applied and worked and I would then try to do that in the civilian side or flip back and forth. And that, that was really, really helpful for me. Yeah. Um, so sometimes, you know, the bakery, uh, I have to remember right, who I'm speaking to, 'cause the language is different. Mm-hmm. Uh, you're gonna teach, uh, you know, bakers about leadership and mentorship.

Uh, it's a very different lexicon than it is talking to a bunch of folks in the military. Mm-hmm. We, we love our analogies in the military and they don't work very well in, in the baking world or the civilian world. So you have to be careful about, you know, what words you use and who you're speaking to.

Mm-hmm. So when did you buy the bakery? 

So, this is another crazy small world story. Mm-hmm. So Apple Annie's Bake Shop has been here in Wilmington for 40 years. This is our 40th year. Okay. Uh, my mom, my, both my parents were from, uh, New York. [00:57:00] Mm-hmm. My mom was from the Bronx, and so she's used to Arthur Avenue level pastries and bakery shops and butcher shops because where she grew up, when we were living in northern Jersey, there was a bakery, a couple towns over called the Chester Bakery in Chester, New Jersey.

Mm-hmm. That was by far the closest bakery that. We could find to kind of Arthur Avenue, New York City style. 

Mm-hmm. 

They made my going away to West Point Cake in the summer of 85. 

Mm-hmm. 

I didn't know it, but after I left, they sold Chester Bakery, moved down here and opened up Apple Annie's Bake Shop. So the same owners that were our family friends from up there, moved down here to Wilmington.

When I got here, 20 something years later, I said, well, where's the best bakery? And he said, oh, by far it's this place called Apple Annie's. Mm-hmm. I had no idea it was the same owner, um, same family. So I went in there and I, I met the, um, the founder's name was Franklin Gordo. Mm-hmm. And we talked over time, and I never put it together.

One day I was dressed in my uniform on the way to Fort Bragg, and he was a Marine. Uh, he started his baking career in the Marines in the late forties and early fifties. So we have black and white photos of cakes that he made for the Marine Corps birthday balls, and for [00:58:00] all the Navy admirals 

mm-hmm.

Coming outta World War II. And he looks over at me and he says, Hey, Rob, what, where you going? I said, oh, I'm, I'm in the Army Reserve. I'm going to Fort Bragg. He said, I was in the Marine. So we had to give each other a little hard time. What? Yeah. Still didn't put it together. But over the next couple months, we started to figure out that we were both from New Jersey.

And I said, Frank, where, where are you from? He said, I'm from northern Jersey. I said, yeah, me too. Where he says, uh, Morris County. I said, so am I. And I, as soon as he said Morris County, I said, there's no way that you're the Chester Bakery. He said, how did you know that? I said, because you guys made my going away to West Point cake.

And he rent in the back and actually pulled up a picture of that cake. The order? Yeah, the actual cake. And so again, our friendship just kind of grow from there. Yeah. And then Frank passes away in the back of the bakery, covered in flour water, you know, doing what he loved. Mm-hmm. Um, his son was in Florida pursuing his art career.

So I called him up and said, look, I don't know how to run a bakery, but I love to eat. Mm-hmm. Um, what do you think about selling it? He's like, yeah, two weeks later I own Apple Annie's. And it's just been, that's 13 years ago. And that's just been an amazing, um, kind of opportunity to be, continue to keep something like Apple Annie's that's a fabric of the [00:59:00] Wilmington.

Mm-hmm. 

Uh, uh, kind of family together and grow it right now. And we're really excited about what's going 

on. Yeah. That's, that's great. Well, congratulations on that. Thank you. On the, uh, acquisition. Yeah. Apple Annie's, it's, it's famous. There's a lot of people, a lot of fans. In the community. Like you said, it's been around for a long time.

Um, one of my good friends, Rita used to go down there and buy your mocha squares, which is what kind of why I, I think maybe some may have showed up here this morning. So, and plus some other samples just in case you want me to tell you that she's really upset that they got removed from the menu. 'cause she used to order it 20 years ago.

So that's so Right. So trends, um, yeah, 

if anybody wants any of the pastries they don't see, just call us and we make 'em for 'em. We just didn't have, we had some folks that loved them but we didn't have enough that liked it. But, um, those are some pretty special mocha squares that you guys have. Yeah. Made with love.

Alright, well thank you so much. Absolutely. Enjoy. So, so after you own the bakery, you said that you're doing some partnerships with other businesses in the area. Yeah, yeah. How's that working out? 

Phenomenal. So, you know, that's what small town Main Street is about. Mm-hmm. From a business side is, [01:00:00] is local for local.

So I saw you had some end of days, uh, kind of liquor over here in the corner. Mm-hmm. Uh, we just partnered, uh, with Shane and Beth. We're using their vanillas in all of our recipes now. We're using their bourbon and their rum and our bourbon and rum products, and it's just great. Um, we did, uh, an event with them a couple weeks ago and there's a bourbon tasting that's coming up this week that will be down there showcasing some of the, the great chocolate products that we have that pair well with the bourbons.

Um, Danielle, with Topsail Steamer, we've been a partner of theirs for years and years. We provide their, uh, key lime pies and the lemon blueberry pies and their cornbread is that they ship with their, their steamer bucket. So it's great. Mm-hmm. Uh, and we continue to look for those opportunities to, to grow and expand.

We've been a partner with UNCW and their sports marketing. Mm-hmm. A department for a long, long time. Um, and, and that, that's, that's the fun part. That's part of the ability to give back. Yeah. Um, you know, the, the veterans in our community, uh, will come in. We have veterans that sit down and get a cup of coffee and a cherry, cherry, Dan, and talk to us.

Some of these are World War II veterans, you know, all the way to kind of current conflict. And it's [01:01:00] just, it's just a quiet spot to kind of sit and talk to some folks who have been there and done that. Mm-hmm. Uh, but that's fun when you can find these opportunities. And then we, we have about 32 wholesale accounts in, in Wilmington.

So these are restaurants. Mm-hmm. Coffee houses, some of the better restaurants, um, hamburger spots in town that use our product, which is really a lot of fun. 

Mm-hmm. What are your expansion plans? Sounds like you're, you're very active in the community, but do you see yourself growing in other areas? We, we, we are, 

um, we just closed our forum store.

Uh, we had two physical locations. We closed that actually last month at the end of January. Mm-hmm. Uh, had some issues with, um, partnerships in the local area. Uh, but now we're focusing on right trends, e-commerce, a lot of folks want their products to be able to ship. Mm-hmm. Uh, so we have custom design, specialized packaging, not, not all of our products can ship very well, but cakes, pies, cheesecakes, things like that.

Mm-hmm. We can get it to the west coast and they're still frozen in two days. Mm-hmm. And so that's an opportunity for us to grow. Uh, and then we're looking at future brick and mortar spaces. Mm-hmm. Uh, probably across the river, down in the Brunswick County area. Uh, and then we're just growing internally.

Our [01:02:00] wholesale account, we, we do wedding cakes. Uh, Han's Western Mark is our TikTok sensation. Mm-hmm. Uh, he's got almost three quarters of a million folks that follow him. He TikTok live on Saturday mornings from the bakery. So it, it is just great to continue to grow like that. 

That's great. Do you also have any partnerships with like wedding planners to do?

We do. We do. Yeah. For sure. Do cakes and things. 

Sure. Yeah. Um, we're expanding that as well. Mm-hmm. Uh, some of our wedding cakes are amazing and we consider ourselves the Cake Boss of the South. Mm-hmm. We can custom design cakes, we can do some really amazing wedding cakes, and our entire team is, is pretty amazing.

So we talked about the importance of human capital, where we treat our, our employees as part of the family. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so everybody is empowered. Mm-hmm. Everybody has the ability to come up with creative ideas. Uh, we want you to, to try to do it the Apple Annie's Bake Shop way. Mm-hmm. Which is a little different than some of the other kind of bakeries around, uh, but our team is, is rock solid.

It's great. Uh, and they, they are really passionate. They're all artists. Mm-hmm. They use flour, water, sugar, food, calling as their canvas. Uh, they really get excited when they see somebody's smile, uh, for one of the cakes that we've done, or a pastry that [01:03:00] they, they made for somebody. It's great. That's great.

Yeah. So, so then you transitioned to the wine shop. Was that after Apple? Yeah. So then 

we bought the, The Wine Sampler. Uh, again, another small world kinda story. My dad had been working there, uh, kind of pouring wine for a while. Okay. Um, and then was going through some, uh, some interesting financial times and he started to put some more of his, his own capital into it.

Mm-hmm. Which is great. Mm-hmm. Then we said, instead of doing this on somebody else's dime, why don't we just make an offer and buy that? Mm-hmm. And so we did. Uh, and then we brought my, uh, sister and brother-in-law. My brother-in-law, Jamie is a small pin sommelier. He's a master brewer. He's really a unicorn of one here in the kind of midtown, in just Wilmington in general.

Uh, we moved it, uh, to be a block and a half away from Apple Annie's, uh, right off of Kerr Avenue. Mm-hmm. And it's great. It, it is so much fun. Uh, so you combine beer and wine, you combine bakery. So you now we call ourselves a sin entrepreneur, which is, which is just a hoot, so. 

Mm-hmm. And are there any synergies between the two businesses?

Oh, 

for sure. Yeah. We, we, we bring a lot of our, uh, [01:04:00] Apple Annie's products over to the, to the wine sampler. Okay. We have cheese crisps that are great with red wine or charcuterie board. Mm-hmm. Um. Yeah. There, there's anywhere we can partner. We absolutely do. 

Mm-hmm. And do you, do you manage this yourself or is it like a family business or, uh, 

so the family and I own The Wine Sampler.

Jamie's the, the one who really kind of manages the business. Okay. Kind of full time. The day to day. Yeah. The day to day for sure. He's the one who's is buying the wine, the beers. Again, his, his knowledge and experience and passion behind what he does is, is unmatched. Mm-hmm. You haven't been there. Come on in.

We'll, we'll go sit there and have a great glass of wine. Yeah. Id, yeah. Cookie for 

sure. Yeah. 

Um, yeah. And then the bakery has some, uh, you know, has some great managers that have been around the block for decades that are kind of helping us. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then I'm in there, you know, when I can, uh, and then really the rest of the time is spent around growing Nuream.

Right. 

So you, you spend probably what, five, 10 hours a week between the bakery and the wine shop or? I would say 

that about five hours. Yep. Yeah. If, if not, which, which is good. 

Yeah. You kind of hands off, let Yeah, absolutely. Let the professionals it 

That's right. You're overseeing things, tasting, sampling, quality control.

That's my [01:05:00] job. So, yeah. 

Do you manage it like a, like a holding company? Like you have interest in both or There's separate businesses that you have to, like, 

they are separate businesses, uh, but they are integrated where we need to. Mm-hmm. Um, and it gives a lot of flexibility. Uh, yeah. But they are separate kind of P&L, separate entities, um, which allows us to either invest uniquely into one mm-hmm.

Versus another or both. Uh, and then our future plans, our future brick and mortar plans, uh, are really to have the two of 'em combined. So wonder, right. We, we've drawn up designs twice before Covid. That's why I was asking. Right. For, because I think for sure, 

you talking about the future is, is combining those businesses.

Yeah. It'd be 

great. Yeah. Really excited. 

And when, what's, what's holding you back from that? Is it just economic, uh, time? Uh, 

so right now it's a little uncertain. Um, the cost of capital is a little bit exciting, uh, and we're one of those businesses that has to be, um, uh, easy to get to. Uh, so traffic ability is important for us.

And Brunswick County's growing so rapidly right now. Uh, we're trying to find the right spot, and this time [01:06:00] we'd like to buy dirt and build a building rather than kind of, you know, lease. Mm-hmm. Uh, and that's the dynamic kind of investment up front. And then the cost of construction right now is through the roof with just the raw materials too.

So yeah, we're just waiting for the right time and the right location. 

From a materials point of view, do you, how do you handle your inventory? Do you buy in bulk? Oh, yeah. Or Yeah. Yeah. 

We, so we, uh, the answer is yes. So at the bakery, right. We'll buy pallets. Uh, and so we don't use artificial ingredients and preservatives.

Yeah. So inventory management is, is pretty important for us, especially 

with the cost of eggs. Right. 

Holy cow. Uh, we don't like talk about that cost eggs. And we, they're, yeah. This has been, it's actually came down a little bit in the recent few days. Couple, yeah. But not, not like where it's been. It, it, and we can't, we don't pass that cost to our customers.

We just can't do that. Um, but we do buy in bulk, so it's Right. Pallets of flour, pallets of sugar. Mm-hmm. We buy butter and quantities that people just would laugh at because that's what we use. We use real ingredients. And the real ingredients are, are costly. 

Well, you could probably taste the difference.

Yeah. And we, we hope so. 

We hope so. Right. [01:07:00] Uh, for sure. Um, and then the same thing on the wine side. If we, if Jamie identifies a unique I. Vintage or vineyard. Uh, and we have access to buy the whole lot. Mm-hmm. Because it's very fractional here in, in North Carolina, we'll buy the whole lot and we'll be the only one to be able to sell that in kind of southeastern North Carolina.

Mm-hmm. And so we have enough purchasing power that allows us to wield that in certain places. Um, and, and it's fun because, uh, when you pick unique, you know, wines and beers that others don't have that, that's why you come to the wine sample. If you want something that's available in the grocery stores, you, you go there.

But we're, we're really kind of differentiated on value education and just experience. We, we have wine tasting in there. We'll bring, uh, a vineyard in that we'll talk about their three or four wines. We'll have a five or six course tasting with their wines. And it's a lot of fun. It sells out in about 13 seconds, so.

Yeah. That's fantastic. 

Yeah, it's fun. 

Now, now you're transitioning into your latest venture. 

Yeah, of course. So, so now that I'm retired from the Army, uh, I have plenty of time to start a neuro data science company. Right. Which is fun. [01:08:00] But, you know, you know, Nuream is really interesting and my partner's Nathan and Lauren, you know, brought an idea.

Uh, to us, that was based on some NASA technology a long time ago, but it, it didn't work. And I say technology, it was trying to sense brainwaves. Um, you know, the brain is really the, the next frontier for health. Mm-hmm. Performance, wellness and mental health issues. We just can't get to it because it's, it's difficult with sensors that are glued to your head or devices that don't work.

Um, but the neuro data's really, really insightful, impactful, and if we can, um, we can crack the code and protect it, um, then it's, it's gonna be really amazing. And I say protect it because, you know, at Phyllis Medical Systems 20 years ago, people are very concerned about your biometric information, your heart rate, anything you can get off a whoop or a Fitbit right now.

Mm-hmm. 

If that got into the wild, you know, people would make bad decisions. People being insurance companies right now, you walk by your smart refrigerator, your entire life comes up on, on the front of it. Um, so people have become very comfortable over time with their biometric information, but they should not be as comfortable with their neuro data.

Mm-hmm. 

You know, that's really [01:09:00] insight to you. Um. And some of our geopolitical competitors that we just talked about are using that information to do some really malicious things mm-hmm. Uh, to individuals. Uh, and so we've gotta be very, very thoughtful and careful. But, uh, yeah, we're, we're excited. Our patent, uh, protected materials are actually collecting brainwaves and things like pillowcase.

Mm-hmm. And then comes the compression wear t-shirt and the wristband materials, the wearables that allow us to collect and curate brainwave information, starting with sleep. Mm-hmm. So the devices that are out there now really have a hard time. They can tell you whether you're asleep or awake generically, or give you a direction, uh, but they can't tell you where you slept.

And I say, where you slept is how long were you in each sleep stage? Mm-hmm. How do you categorize that? And then what, what happened that, that moved you out of restorative sleep, like rem or some of the other places? Mm-hmm. And so then you'll be able to run your own sleep study in your home on your pillowcase, and then we'll be able to give you a real result the next morning mm-hmm.

To see how you slept. And then you run, you change your sleep hygiene. You change your sleep [01:10:00] prep. You'll be able to Right. Dial in your sleep to be as restorative as possible. Mm-hmm. And then what, what we're excited about is that longitudinal. Right? So time, over time, uh, looking at your sleep patterns, I'll be able to see what normal looks like for you.

Then I'll also be able to identify those anomalies and disturbances, and those are leading indicators of neurological disease, pending epilepsy, um, multiple sclerosis mm-hmm. Onset dementia. Right. Anything that the brain's gonna signal well before a physiological response mm-hmm. We'll be able to capture that in the, in the very small changes of your brainwave information.

Mm-hmm. Same thing with mental health. Um Right. Lack of sleep, um, depression or identified and changes to sleep patterns. Mm-hmm. And then we can get in front of it. The idea is that we're, we're identifying these problems as early as we can, so earliest identifi identification means earliest intervention, which means a better outcome on the backside.

Mm-hmm. It's pretty exciting. 

How did you meet the two partners that you mentioned? 

So, turns out they're neighbors right across the street from me. Okay. Uh, and then they're, they were in the furniture business. So, uh, Nathan and Lauren Mutton are, uh, almost [01:11:00] 25 year veterans in the furniture sleep space.

Okay. Uh, and because my wife was in the furniture space too, they had known each other for a long time and they saw Genie and they said, Hey, I got this interesting technology. Genie said, well, my husband used to do something like that. So we met over time and, and after a couple months we thought there was really something there.

Uh, and then, you know, that was about two and a half years ago, so we're off and, and running right now. So it's, it's a ball. 

So their background was furniture. Furniture, yep. Okay. And they, 

they're not only furniture, but disruptive technologies. Okay. Inside the furniture, they've done some really interesting things with batteries.

Um, and what they're, they're good at is, is creating technology to innovate and disrupt the marketplace. Okay. And then Right. Penetrate the market that way, which is really interesting. So, so we have, uh, an e-commerce, uh, website up and running now. So we're selling mattresses, bed bases, pillows, sheets because what we're trying to do is build a customer base that's ready when we have the pillowcase that's interesting.

In the science of sleep. 

Okay. 

Um, and that's underway right now. 

So I was reading that. It's interesting technology called Fabric as a [01:12:00] service. 

Fabric As a sensor. Yeah. As a sensor. Yep. I'm sorry. FAAS. Yeah. Yep. 

I'm, I'm used to the software as a service. That's right. Yeah's. Right? Yep. So can, can you break it down a little bit on how the data's collected?

Yep. And, and analyzed for sure. From a, from a, yeah. 

So Fabric as a sensor is really a solution, but it starts with the neurosensing fabrics. So right pillowcase, right. These aren't sensors sewn into a pillowcase, but the actual material of the pillowcase mm-hmm. Will be conductive. And that allows us to collect the minute brainwaves, which are electrical stimuli.

Mm-hmm. And oh, by the way, we can capture every other stimuli in the body, like heart rate. So we'll be able to capture a lot of the basic biometric information as well. Mm-hmm. So on your pillowcase, we'll be able to collect it, but, you know, sleeping in, in a normal room, normal bedroom is very noisy. So what we have to do now is use some really interesting.

Noise reduction technologies. Uh, so we can remove everything out of the noisy bedroom environment and focus just on the brainwaves. So it's trying to find a chocolate chip in the middle of a huge chocolate chip cookie. And so the science and math has only now kind of got to the point where we can do that.

So neurosensing materials have come a [01:13:00] long way. Advanced material manufacturing and and design have come a long way. We're in a really interesting spot now, but the science and math that allows us to do this really high-end neuro algorithm development 

Mm. Is 

only kind of recently in place. And so we'll be able to collect it, curate it, protect it, and then write on the neuro data stack.

So we collect your sleep for two weeks, four weeks, six months. Mm-hmm. Then we can use those stacks to look for those anomalies and that's where we have neuro telemedicine capability at the edge. We'll be able to go into wellness and performance. You'll be able to package that neuro data to provide it to a lot of interested mm-hmm.

Parties. 

So it sounds like it's both a hardware and a software? It is, it is both. 

It's it's hardware, it's software, and then it's use of data. 

Mm-hmm. Can you describe a little bit about your software stack? What's that look like? 

Yeah, so software stacks, uh, is interesting. It starts at the ability to collect minute, uh, brainwave information.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and again, that's the signal to noise kind of reduction, is to remove all the noise, do as much local, uh, collection as we can. Mm-hmm. Uh, because we will have to move this to the cloud at some point for, [01:14:00] for high computation, but in the sleep model, I don't have to have near real time data flow.

Mm-hmm. Because Right. You're asleep. Now, the brain will also signaled to you when you start to wake up, there's about a 20, 25 minute package. So our data is collected, curated, and stored locally, then it's moved to the cloud for computation. And then we're gonna have a dashboard. So when you get up in the morning, you'll have a true sleep score.

Mm-hmm. Um, not biometric information. It'll be complimented with biometric, but it'll be your Right. Your actual sleep stages. Mm-hmm. So when you get up in the morning, what's the first thing most of us do is we grab our phone and look, and then you'll be able to see that score. Mm-hmm. Uh, so it is, that's the start to the stack.

The algorithms that are in the cloud, uh, we're looking at, you know, Amazon web services kind of cloud, and then Databricks from a cloud computing perspective, running sparks against the actual metadata. Mm-hmm. Because then we can categorize the data in unique kind of environments. So one of the things that'll be really helpful is, is looking at tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of men between the age of 40 and 55 that have leading indicators of dementia.

Mm-hmm. 

So we can look backwards in the data stacks and then be predictive in the [01:15:00] future as we see those anomalies in somebody else coming. That could be a leading indicator where there's a problem. And so if you allow your information to be shared with a neurologist, um, and he can look for those disturbances and bring you in earlier mm-hmm.

Rather than waiting for a physiological response or some outward appearance that, you know, the brain has already signaled to you months, days, weeks in advance mm-hmm. That something's going on. Mm-hmm. 

Now where, where are you at in the development stage? Are you a prototype or are you Actually, we are a 

prototype, actually.

Uh, our first prototype, uh, is being tested at, um, UNCW. Okay. So UNCW has, um, has developed kind of a, a two-pronged approach for the future. One is in kind of the marine cybersecurity. The other one is Brain Health Hub, and we're one of the plank founding industry members in that, that kind of environment.

So we're in the second semester of testing. Uh, we had a sample size of 15, so 15 college students last year. Mm-hmm. Slept on our pillow type. We collected their brainwaves. Now we're analyzing that against the gold standard electroencephalogram or EEG. Mm-hmm. Those are the caps that you have kind of glued your head.

Right. So that we can, we can show folks that we're collecting a different brainwave, [01:16:00] but we can do just the same gold standard kind of sleep analysis. Mm-hmm. We have another study going on this year for another 30 participants. So by the end of the semester in the next six to eight weeks, we'll have about 45, uh, folks collected.

And then we also have a subset of that demographic is, uh, military. Right. So, right. This will have a dual use application for our war fighters. Uh, the DOD needs something to be a little more ruggedized, but that's why we're gonna go direct to consumer with our first pillowcase and kind of software and then drag the, the DOD through it right now.

Yeah, I was gonna ask Yeah. The military for sure would be a good area to partner with. Absolutely. Yeah. 

And as a guy who can't sleep, uh, that's also the genesis, right? I'm, I have no problem falling asleep, but I just can't stay asleep. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know if it's 37 years of, of jumping outta airplanes, concussive injuries, PTSD, traumatic brain injuries, TBIs, all the bad things we saw.

I, I think it's a combination of it. Mm-hmm. But, but two thirds of us in, in the war fighter and first responder space don't sleep very well. Mm-hmm. And sleep is so important. It's really critical to every system and function in your body. Mm-hmm. You know, short term sleep deprivation [01:17:00] is, is dangerous long term.

And chronic sleep loss is deadly. Mm-hmm. And so that's what we're trying to do is get ahead of it. Uh, and you know, on the war fighter space, you wanna make sure you have the right folks that are flying F35s and dropping bombs close to you Right. As well. Rested as possible. 

Oh, a hundred percent. Yep.

Yeah. 

Yeah. I share that with you. I don't have problems sleeping as well. You, you can be patient one after that. I'll be patient. Zero. You can be patient one. There you go. Sign me up. So you're actively raising capital at this point? We are. We are. 

Yep. So we've bootstrapped this, uh, we have a $2 million safe open right now.

Okay. We have, um, collected about 450-465,000 from Angels and some high net worth folks. Okay. 

Mostly local. Uh, 

nope. From all over the kind of country. Uh, we have some angel syndicates, uh, that are now interested in us. We actually had some really interesting, um, interest from, um, from some folks out in the, the Midwest.

Mm-hmm. Uh, but they typically make larger investments and so, um, you know, we're, we're looking at the right vehicle. Mm-hmm. Some folks, uh, consider it a safe, a simple agreement for future [01:18:00] equity. Mm-hmm. You know, a very left coast, kind of Silicon Valley mm-hmm. Vehicle and don't like to do it. More convertible notes out here.

Mm-hmm. Um, but we're, we're looking, uh, for some really interesting kind of, and, and, and, right. There's one thing about money. There's also. Think about smart money and partnerships and mm-hmm. Right. Strategic investors. That's what we're looking for. Yeah. We've got a couple organizations like the Capital Factory that, uh, we're in due diligence with them outta Texas.

Uh, and then some really interesting joint ventures as well, um, to kind of partner with, to, to expand our technology development. Yeah. 

The, the safe approach, um, it's really popular these days because it's, it's cheap, it's easy. Mm-hmm. A lot of people don't understand the legal cost of setting up corporate documents and, and trying to go out and do fundraising.

'cause a lot of CEO and founders, instead of building their business, they're out, you know, pitching for money. Right. And once they have the money, now they have to go build the business and then worry about raising more money if traction doesn't happen as quick as they thought. Right. What does that look like for you as far [01:19:00] as traction?

Like use of proceeds? 

Yeah. For, so you're right. And I had this conversation with, uh, the S-B-T-D-C at the CIE last week. Mm-hmm. I said, look, CEOs, you're always raising money. If you're not raising money from, from revenue, you're raising money from somewhere else. Mm-hmm. So don't ever stop and Right. And whenever you think you have enough money, you don't, whenever you don't need money is when you do need the money.

Exactly. And so you've got Right. That comes with scars and, um, and, uh, you know, learning the lessons very, very quickly, but it is a combination. Uh, you have to demonstrate traction, you have to demonstrate efficacy. Mm-hmm. You have to demonstrate that there's this little thing called the customer's gonna buy it at the end of it.

Uh, and you're doing it all on a limited amount of time and money. 

Mm-hmm. 

And so that's where, you know, experience comes in. You. There'll be times where you, you believe your cash flush and technology poor or the other way around. 

Mm-hmm. 

Um, so it, it, it's meant to be a sine wave. Uh, and so the day of the entrepreneur is, you know, it starts out, oh my goodness, we're, we're all gonna fail.

Mm-hmm. 

Uh, 10 minutes later, maybe I have a new idea. 30 minutes later, right? You get an investor phone call, uh, 40 minutes [01:20:00] later, you're the best thing since sliced bread and you're the goat of all the startup companies, and then half hour later right, you didn't get the deal. Mm-hmm. So, so that continues to play.

So you have to be very thoughtful in terms of where you apply your money. It's all the flip side. And you talked about the intellectual property. So you need to, you need to have the right lawyers. Right? Right. And, and that's another lesson learned from, from young entrepreneurs is hire the right team upfront.

Mm-hmm. Um, and then don't be afraid if, if the team that you've hired is not working out to your need, then you have to be willing, willing to pivot very, very quickly too. Mm-hmm. It's not that you don't like people, it's just that there's Right. The business acumen comes with having the right folks on your team.

You gotta get the right team. 

Mm-hmm. Is culture important to you in running and operating a business? A hundred percent. 

So we use culture as a lens before we look at partnership. Mm-hmm. Whether it's, uh, potential investors, whether it's somebody in our C-Suite team, for sure. Whether it's advisors, um, whether it's companies that we wanna partner with.

If we don't align nearly a hundred percent in, in our culture and our goals and values, then it just [01:21:00] probably won't work. And it probably won't work in the near term, but it certainly won't work in the long term. Mm-hmm. Right. Every one of these partners, right, especially in the very beginning stages of a startup, are so vital, important.

You can't really make a mistake. Mm-hmm. Uh, 'cause if you do make the mistake, it's costly. Longer term, you just don't have the hours and time to kind of sit there and try to massage something. Um, but if you do it right upfront, if you use the right lens upfront in, in your due diligence mm-hmm. You have a much better outcome.

At least I think so. 

And how, how has the military affected your thoughts on leadership and culture? 

The blocking and tackling of a military leader, which is, um, being transparent, uh, being forthright, uh, being expert in your chosen profession is really, really critical in my mind. And, uh, we don't need to have a hundred military folks on our team.

Um, and I need the, you know, the folks on our team to understand that there is a little military flavor that's gonna come through it. Mm-hmm. And if, if that's not the way to communicate or interact, then, then we'll find that, hopefully in our due diligence process. Um, 'cause the worst thing that we can get to is group think.

Mm-hmm. But if you have, I hate [01:22:00] to say this, if you have a civilian company or industry, it's only led by military, you're gonna have a very military led outcome. 

Mm-hmm. 

Some cases that could be very positive if you're selling, you know, intelligence back to the government or something like that. But not for a consumer kind of retail market space.

You need to have that diversity of thought. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think the military brings the structure that we talked about in the beginning, but it's not a mandatory must have. You know, there, on the other side, there are some, um, uh, some venture, uh, capital companies that are focused on kind of venture oriented businesses.

Mm-hmm. And so we're, we're talking to some of those as well. But if you look at those, the successful, uh, venture funds, they invest in veterans, but not only in veteran veterans, you, you need to diversify your portfolio, much like a veteran owned business needs to look at those particular venture funds, but also throughout the entire kind of ecosystem as well.

Yeah, absolutely. Yep. 

Culture's important. 

Culture's, very 

important Culture beats strategy all day long. 

A hundred percent. So what does the future look like for you? It seems like you've got your hands busy with family and post [01:23:00] semi-retirement looking things to do here in the local community in Wilmington, and obviously running the bakery, running the wine shop, future expansion plans there, and also with, uh, launching of Nuream and, and all of its challenges.

Yeah, so again, there are no two days alike, which is so much fun. Um, and, and as long as I'm still having fun in all of them, we we'll do that. Mm-hmm. Uh, but I've been very, very fortunate to build teams, you know, at the bakery, uh, and at The Wine Sampler mm-hmm. That allow them to, to operate. And again, I come in as the taste and quality control guy when we need to.

Which is fun. Uh, but, but it is important to maintain the culture and only the leaders kind of do that. So that's why being in the business enough and, you know, depending on what enough is for a day, may be different on, you know, today than it is kind of next Monday. But you have to be able to be fluid enough.

Uh, but then it's about passion. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, the small businesses that we own right now are Right. Connected to the, to the families and, and then not only to our family, but right to the family we call Wilmington. Mm-hmm. So we, we [01:24:00] want to continue to give back that way. And so those, these businesses will stay around for a long time.

And then Nuream is fun. Nuream is really the nexus of what, 30, 40 years of kind of science, education, background, personal issues. I, I can't sleep. And so as I, as I deal with a lot of veteran support organizations, I, I sit on a lot of boards as well to kind of help them. Mm-hmm. You know, we all kind of struggle and laugh at how poorly we sleep.

Mm-hmm. And we, while we laugh and, uh, about our struggles, it's really important because we're not getting any better. Uh, and so this is, this is something I think was, no, I think this is something that's gonna make a big difference mm-hmm. Uh, to a lot of different communities and, you know, we talked about some of the other vertical out there.

Uh, so, so much so that Nuream started a 501c3, you know, our not-for-profit. Mm-hmm. 

Uh, 

to use our neuro data on the mental health and mental wellbeing space. Mm-hmm. Um, because it's that important. Uh, you know, it's that endemic in our society where, uh, every one of our families have seen mental health, um, of, of some sort all the way through suicide.

And in the military, you know, the average that people like to say is [01:25:00] 22 suicides a day in the military. Mm-hmm. That's tragic, but the numbers a lot more than that, right? Mm-hmm. If you look at truly the numbers in the military and our veteran population, it's more like 40 or 50 a day. Mm-hmm. If you do the math, you know, that's, that's pretty bad.

And a lot of it, um, kind of drives down to loss of the tribe, loss of connection. And then our tools aren't good enough to help us identify these problems earlier. Mm-hmm. You know, I was the chief of staff of the Army Reserve Command. So Army Reserve Command is 200,000 people, civilians and military. And one of my, one of my unfortunate jobs was to do an investigation on every suicide.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and we were looking backwards and trying to find the indicators or the signs. We never saw this. We missed it. Um, and the Army Reserve is different than the active duty. Active duty on Fort Bragg. Comes together a couple times a day for formations in the Army Reserve. You know, I, I had a unit in, in New York City and I had soldiers from 32 states that would fly in for a weekend.

You know, it's hard to, to see what's going on a day-to-day basis when you're platoon sergeants and is in, uh, Peoria and your platoon leaders in Florida. Right. But you still have to figure out how to [01:26:00] do it. So if we can do some things to connect ourselves virtually and digitally, uh, that's what we have to do.

But certainly, um, you know, the suicide issue is one of the foundations is, is sleep. Mm-hmm. Stress in the financial space, stress in relationship, stress in. Um, transition, just moving to somewhere that's different and then not being able to sleep either from PTSD or something else. You put all that together.

Now you have the, unfortunately, the conditions for a, for a bad outcome mm-hmm. Suicide ideations, and then suicides. That's, that's terrible. It impacts so many people. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's really, you know, at that point, the, the mind has not been able to operate in logic correctly. Mm-hmm. It's, um, it's in a different spot.

And so we can do some things to help get in front of that. Mm-hmm. Which we absolutely will than a hundred percent on the list. 

Do you feel, I know this is off topic, but like, do you feel some of those systemic issues and outcomes that are tragic in the military, is that feeding in some of the issues on recruiting?

Because I, I've been reading that there's recruiting [01:27:00] problems. 

Yeah. So the answer is, yeah. So I mean, our issues with recruiting, um, are, are multifaceted. Mm-hmm. I, I mentioned earlier, 70% of our new recruits come from a military family. So if you look at the math at that next up pretty quickly. Mm-hmm. Um, and we recruit from certain.

Certain zip codes in the, in the country. So, you know, it used to be a great way to change a course of life. Uh, 'cause the military would give you some opportunities. Um, now most of the folks are joining for the opportunity to go to college, which is great. Mm-hmm. Right? If you serve one day, one hour, you know, one year you're, you're a brother, a sister of mine, and I appreciate that.

Mm-hmm. Um, but right now we're very concerned about what happens post service. Mm-hmm. Um, and whether it's the va, whether it's, uh, access to retirements, which are now different than it used to be. Mm-hmm. I mean, all these things add uncertainty. Add uncertainty to parents and to, to, you know, young men and women who are thinking about joining the military.

This is a different society. Um, you know, they look peer to peer for kind of support group versus kind of mentors and kind of, um, heroes kind of thing. [01:28:00] Um, and we, we in the military have to do a better job of providing the, the right structure for 'em. Mm-hmm. Uh, and. We, we have seen too much suicide, uh, in, in, um, in our, in our ranks.

Mm-hmm. And it's not just suicide, it's mental health of all kinds. Right. The, the military is meant to be a, a, a slice, a perfect slice of humanity mm-hmm. Uh, and of our society. Uh, and it comes with all great and, um, you know, good and bad. Uh, but our job is to make sure we get the best out of every, we, we do the best we can for everybody, and they do the best for the military.

Mm-hmm. Uh, but there is that mental health side there. And we've asked some folks in the last couple years since Global War on Terror, do some really horrific things. And we, we owe them a data of gratitude. Mm-hmm. We also owe them, uh, the opportunity for us to help them identify the problems and, and get some help where they need it.

Well, hopefully your technology will help make some strides. Absolutely. That area. Absolutely. Yeah. We're 

excited about that. Yeah. So is the military, so is the va 

Yeah. That's great. Yep. Well, thank you again. This has been, this has been very good. I really appreciate your time and I've enjoyed talking to you and learning more about the businesses and [01:29:00] your future plans.

Same here. Thank you again. And thank you for what you do. I think, you know, uh, you, you're doing a great. It's a, uh, thing for, for this environment. It's really amazing when, when folks of your kind of experience, talent, and background come down here and do something like this. So thank you for what you do every day.

Absolutely. Thank you.

Amplified. CEO is produced by Topsail Insider, edited by Jim Mendes-Pouget, and sponsored by Cape Fear Ventures. For more information about Amplified CEO, Richard Stroupe, or Cape Fear Ventures, please contact Christa at 910-800-0111 or christa@topsailinsider.com.